shiftless
Active Member
What wideband controller are you using? Some of them are crap. Don't waste your time with a narrowband, they are useless for tuning.
TBI conversion on a 472
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STDog
Active Member
73eldoconvert said:
Once you get it tuned and the maps/tables set they way you want, the NB will be all you need to run closed loop for cruising.
But, the WB is for tuning, when you need to know where you are relative to where you want to be.
I don't see a need for a WB on a running cruiser when you aren't playing with different mixtures constantly.
Modly
New Member
I need to re-calibrate my WB sensor in mine. That bastard is off by a mile.
I plan on eventually doing duals though. My understanding though, is anything that runs narrowband sensors shouldn't need more than one, and that more is better with wideband. I might be wrong about that, but that is what I've gotten out of all that reading while doing the fuel injection project.
I plan on eventually doing duals though. My understanding though, is anything that runs narrowband sensors shouldn't need more than one, and that more is better with wideband. I might be wrong about that, but that is what I've gotten out of all that reading while doing the fuel injection project.
shiftless
Active Member
Scout, no offense intended but there are a few things you just don't understand. No, the Megasquirt does not come with a built in wideband controller, nor does it have a built in vacuum gauge or compression tester. A wideband sensor/controller is a TOOL that you use to tune a vehicle, then put back on the shelf to be used some other time in the future. The MS also doesn't offer transmission control, sequential injection, or any other number of gee whiz features that 99% of people don't need. It's nothing but a do-it-yourself, simple and cheap controller that controls fuel and spark, and it does this job well. That's it. If you need something that does everything, then save up thousands of dollars and buy a Motec.
Speaking of cost, where the hell are you getting $700-$800 from? I built Megasquirts for a living, and I have never seen a MS that costs this much, nor could I ever imagine what features you would need that would drive up the cost that high. A top of the line, fully assembled MS2 v3.57 computer is $405 from DIYAutoTune. An assembled MS1 v3.0, which is capable of doing the exact same job, is only $330. If you build it yourself or have a friend do it, the price goes way down. About the only other thing you might need is a 12' wiring pigtail for $65 and possibly a few sensors for less than $50. Now how much does the cheapest aftermarket multiport system cost? How much for the cheapest one that is actually worth a damn?
There is good reason that the MS community has EXPLODED in members over the past few years.
Speaking of cost, where the hell are you getting $700-$800 from? I built Megasquirts for a living, and I have never seen a MS that costs this much, nor could I ever imagine what features you would need that would drive up the cost that high. A top of the line, fully assembled MS2 v3.57 computer is $405 from DIYAutoTune. An assembled MS1 v3.0, which is capable of doing the exact same job, is only $330. If you build it yourself or have a friend do it, the price goes way down. About the only other thing you might need is a 12' wiring pigtail for $65 and possibly a few sensors for less than $50. Now how much does the cheapest aftermarket multiport system cost? How much for the cheapest one that is actually worth a damn?
There is good reason that the MS community has EXPLODED in members over the past few years.
shiftless said:
No offense taken. It’s cool that someone with your background is on this board that we can learn from.
When I said $700-800 I was talking with a wideband and the controller.
28 Aug DIYAutoTune quote:
$405 Assembled Megasquirt2
$69 Assembled Stimulator
$88 Assembled relay board
$70 Megasquirt to relay board cable
$40 12' wire bundle for relay board to engine
$17 Coolant temperature sensor
$22 IAT Sensor
$8 Steel Bung for IAT sensor
$6 DB9 tuning cable
$20 USB adapter
SubTotal with NO wideband: $745
$200 LC1 wideband (no AFR gauge)
Total: $945 with the WB
Now I don’t want to get in a big debate I’m just saying that it’s easy to spend $700 or $800. Even if I cut a bunch of corners I'm probably still around $700 with wideband. Pretty decent compared to aftermarket, but then again I can get a complete PCM set up, wiring and all, from Pick and Pull for maybe $150-200 that will also control my 4L80e.
So anyway I'm not dogging the MS in anyway. I'm just saying that it's over-sold on the boards.
BTW. What MS distributor were you with? One thing about the MS that I've been meaning to research is trouble/error codes. Does the software output error codes? They've really saved me a lot of time in the past. Bad sensors, ign coils, tranny solenoids, etc.
73eldoconvert
Active Member
I have an LC-1 and especially after talking to a 'factory' tech am thinking its a poor design. It may be fine to run in a dyno shop plugged into a computer grade power system but it seems too dang sensitive to live in an automotive environment. I heard good things about the LM but something about the 'low cost' controller must have made it flaky. My next attempt is going to be to do a test run off its own battery. If that works I may go get a capacitor. I thought about building a little filter board for it but its load varies and gets as high as 3 amps. I have it hooked to the MS relay board and 9 times out of 10 there is no power glitch when the thing drops to 'warm up' mode. The last few weeks after driving for about 20 minutes it gets stuck on error 3 which is 'open pump circuit'. Power cycle gets it back to normal.
I bought my ms parts from various vendors but am now using DIY even though they sold me the LC1. One of the guys from there regularly hangs out on the MS Forums and helps everyone even people that dont buy from him.
Your list looks about right. I built my own cables because I did not want to make that big of a hole in my firewall. Later I found out that DIY will sell it to you with one end off. The stimulator is handy and should be required if you build it yourself. I used the relay board and was not 100% happy with how it came out but dont really have any ideas that are practical and better. I would do the bundle of wire next time because its not much more expensive than buying a couple of rolls of the same color yourself and having to keep track. His bundle has multicolors and labels printed right on which will make it easier and neater. I used the CLT for both sensor locations, they say you only need the other one for boosted applications. Im using a MR gasket chrome air cleaner assy and found that the IAT fits (with slight pocket knife mods) in the hole they give you for a breather. I started out just having it strapped to the side of the throttle body since it was an open element air cleaner anyway. Temps run the same but it looks nicer now. $26 for a adapter cable is about as cheap as they get and you know it will work if you get it from them, many dont work. I already had one for other reasons and IIRC it was about $50.
As far as trouble codes, there are none but so far I have not found that to be a problem. I think that MS users are 'in tune' with their engines and notice if something does not seem right. You then just hook up megatune and if you cant see it there do a couple of logs and get out MegaLogViewer. MLV logs like 100 parameters so it dont take long to see whats not right.
Ya the GPIO board is 'coming soon' and has been for almost 2 years now. Like shiftless said how many people really need it? I bet thats one reason it has not got finished sooner. If they get it working it does seem like it will be the cheapest way to control a transmission.
The best part about MS is it can run anything. The worst part is it can run anything so you have quite a bit of things to get programed and understand just to start your motor. If you had a SBC you may be able to get a 'plug and play' EFI system that will run alright but I think in the long run you will be better off with MS because you are pretty much forced to learn and understand more aspects of the system. In the end you will be in a better position to make further improvements and trouble shoot problems.
I bought my ms parts from various vendors but am now using DIY even though they sold me the LC1. One of the guys from there regularly hangs out on the MS Forums and helps everyone even people that dont buy from him.
Your list looks about right. I built my own cables because I did not want to make that big of a hole in my firewall. Later I found out that DIY will sell it to you with one end off. The stimulator is handy and should be required if you build it yourself. I used the relay board and was not 100% happy with how it came out but dont really have any ideas that are practical and better. I would do the bundle of wire next time because its not much more expensive than buying a couple of rolls of the same color yourself and having to keep track. His bundle has multicolors and labels printed right on which will make it easier and neater. I used the CLT for both sensor locations, they say you only need the other one for boosted applications. Im using a MR gasket chrome air cleaner assy and found that the IAT fits (with slight pocket knife mods) in the hole they give you for a breather. I started out just having it strapped to the side of the throttle body since it was an open element air cleaner anyway. Temps run the same but it looks nicer now. $26 for a adapter cable is about as cheap as they get and you know it will work if you get it from them, many dont work. I already had one for other reasons and IIRC it was about $50.
As far as trouble codes, there are none but so far I have not found that to be a problem. I think that MS users are 'in tune' with their engines and notice if something does not seem right. You then just hook up megatune and if you cant see it there do a couple of logs and get out MegaLogViewer. MLV logs like 100 parameters so it dont take long to see whats not right.
Ya the GPIO board is 'coming soon' and has been for almost 2 years now. Like shiftless said how many people really need it? I bet thats one reason it has not got finished sooner. If they get it working it does seem like it will be the cheapest way to control a transmission.
The best part about MS is it can run anything. The worst part is it can run anything so you have quite a bit of things to get programed and understand just to start your motor. If you had a SBC you may be able to get a 'plug and play' EFI system that will run alright but I think in the long run you will be better off with MS because you are pretty much forced to learn and understand more aspects of the system. In the end you will be in a better position to make further improvements and trouble shoot problems.
73eldoconvert
Active Member
A few years ago I was leaning to the GM ecu side of things just thinking that its a proven reliable setup vs. the MS. Someone then pointed out that since you are altering the GM one its no longer the stock proven system it started out as. When I was doing all my research I was never comfortable with the amount of info I could find about the GM stuff. people seemed to have it but did not want to share it especially for free. This could have changed since then but the little I have looked into it recently it does not seem much different. The open source nature of the MS appealed to me because the info is out there and easy to find. It did not help that the guy I decided to get a GM system from turned out to be a sorry excuse for a human and only managed to cash my check but has not given me anything but excuses for the last 2 years.
STDog
Active Member
I thought one of the GPIO boards was done and the 4l60e software was working on it. I haven't followed it closely though.
Then there's a 4l60e controller based on the microSquirt board (I have a copy of that software that I wanted to port to a different MCU).
http://www.jsm-net.demon.co.uk/trans/index.html
TJ, have you looked at the DIY controllers from WBO2.com?
http://wbo2.com/2y/default.htm
It's about $125 for the kit and display. You already have a cable and sensor or you could get a sensor form a junk yard or local parts store.
Probably need an extra connector to connect your current sensor+cable to the controller.
Or wait for the built in display version as it'll be cheaper than the external display.
Then there's a 4l60e controller based on the microSquirt board (I have a copy of that software that I wanted to port to a different MCU).
http://www.jsm-net.demon.co.uk/trans/index.html
TJ, have you looked at the DIY controllers from WBO2.com?
http://wbo2.com/2y/default.htm
It's about $125 for the kit and display. You already have a cable and sensor or you could get a sensor form a junk yard or local parts store.
Probably need an extra connector to connect your current sensor+cable to the controller.
Or wait for the built in display version as it'll be cheaper than the external display.
TJ,
Thanks for the info. Very helpful. I've been reading up on the innovate stuff and it seems many people are having issues. Seems any water or transient voltage will kill them.
About the error codes troubleshooting is not an issue for me (electronics degree/background), but it's like anything. Once you have it you get spoiled and don't want to live without it. I was driving across FL one time when my truck starting running bad. I stopped at the local autoparts store, borrowed their scanner, and about 3 minutes later knew I had a bad #5 coil. Didn't have a tool on me, just my manual.
Hard to say at this point if I'll go with MS or GM. The mid '94-95 PCM's look pretty good for my purposes and Tunercat has broken all the code. Their interface looks decent but spartan.
If you have a few minutes download their evaluation software - RT Tuner - and tell me what you think. http://www.tunercat.com/tnr_desc/do_tc.html After the emulator times-out click Open and then click the one BIN file. I'm guessing you'll recognize most of the tables and constants for the GM software.
That relay board is one thing I don't like about the MS either. Hopefully the next-gen MS will have a better implementation. I'd probably just mount some relay sockets and fuses in a hobby box and save myself the $$.
Over on thirdgen there are numerous people controlling 4l60's and 4l80's with all sorts of junkyard TCM's and PCM's. I could use the MS for my FI along with a TCM for my trans, but than I would have to split all the signals. I rather not open that can of worms.
Thanks for the info. Very helpful. I've been reading up on the innovate stuff and it seems many people are having issues. Seems any water or transient voltage will kill them.
About the error codes troubleshooting is not an issue for me (electronics degree/background), but it's like anything. Once you have it you get spoiled and don't want to live without it. I was driving across FL one time when my truck starting running bad. I stopped at the local autoparts store, borrowed their scanner, and about 3 minutes later knew I had a bad #5 coil. Didn't have a tool on me, just my manual.
Hard to say at this point if I'll go with MS or GM. The mid '94-95 PCM's look pretty good for my purposes and Tunercat has broken all the code. Their interface looks decent but spartan.
If you have a few minutes download their evaluation software - RT Tuner - and tell me what you think. http://www.tunercat.com/tnr_desc/do_tc.html After the emulator times-out click Open and then click the one BIN file. I'm guessing you'll recognize most of the tables and constants for the GM software.
That relay board is one thing I don't like about the MS either. Hopefully the next-gen MS will have a better implementation. I'd probably just mount some relay sockets and fuses in a hobby box and save myself the $$.
Over on thirdgen there are numerous people controlling 4l60's and 4l80's with all sorts of junkyard TCM's and PCM's. I could use the MS for my FI along with a TCM for my trans, but than I would have to split all the signals. I rather not open that can of worms.
shiftless
Active Member
I agree the LC1 is a bad design. The LM1 is good but my personal recommendation is the Tech Edge units from http://www.wbo2.com. I had the 2A0 DIY kit. The total cost was less than $200. It was a damn nice wideband controller, and it had datalogging capabilities as well, which is handy for tuning a carb engine where you don't have an MS for datalogging.
scout, I now see where you got the $700+ figure from. FWIW, many items on that list just aren't necessary. For example, the relay board and associated hardware. All you really need is a single relay to power the fuel pump. You can buy a $5 relay from the parts store for that purpose and mount it wherever. The rest of the connections should be terminated directly to the appropriate connectors on the engine. The stimulator is handy but not really needed. I have one because I build a lot of MS boards, but for a single build it is not all that useful. For a pre-assembled MS, like you listed, it is completely useless and a waste of money. The DB9 cable is not needed if you have the USB adapter. And as I mentioned before, the MS2 v3.57 board is complete overkill. A plain jane MS1 v3.0 is much cheaper and has the same capabilities.
Taking these suggestions into account, the total price drops to $455. It would still be much cheaper if you built it yourself, but for a prebuilt unit that's pretty damn cheap.
scout, I now see where you got the $700+ figure from. FWIW, many items on that list just aren't necessary. For example, the relay board and associated hardware. All you really need is a single relay to power the fuel pump. You can buy a $5 relay from the parts store for that purpose and mount it wherever. The rest of the connections should be terminated directly to the appropriate connectors on the engine. The stimulator is handy but not really needed. I have one because I build a lot of MS boards, but for a single build it is not all that useful. For a pre-assembled MS, like you listed, it is completely useless and a waste of money. The DB9 cable is not needed if you have the USB adapter. And as I mentioned before, the MS2 v3.57 board is complete overkill. A plain jane MS1 v3.0 is much cheaper and has the same capabilities.
Taking these suggestions into account, the total price drops to $455. It would still be much cheaper if you built it yourself, but for a prebuilt unit that's pretty damn cheap.
STDog
Active Member
shiftless said:
What hapened to the 2A0?
I was looking again and see their only DIY controller now is the 2Y.
$143 for the kit, cable, and display kit $101 w/o the display.
The 1M datalogging module is an extra $26, but the base unit will log to a PC.
Free software (registration for support is $30) with a nice display option. The protocol info is on line too, so you could easily write custom tools.
That will work with this $50 wb sensor. AIRTEX # 5S4270
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,carcode,1359468,parttype,5132,EPIsubcategory%5B1015%5D,Oxygen%2BSensor,partGroup,19
Tech Edge wants $80 for the sensor.
With the AirTech sensor and the kit, that a WB setup for under $200 (if you weld the bung for the sensor).
~$150 if you don't want a separate dedicated display (ie use a computer or other analog gauge voltage gauge or even a multimeter)
STDog
Active Member
Scout,
What the WB Autotune and why do you want it? Same with the 12/12 tables?
I'd just run the NB emulated output to the MS, and use the standalone controller for tuning.
As to the relays, a few $5 relays and inline fuses in a plastic box.
My understanding was the stimulator was for debugging/testing the build when you build your own unit.
It's not like you'd pick up a reprogrammed GM computer at the local parts house either.
What the WB Autotune and why do you want it? Same with the 12/12 tables?
I'd just run the NB emulated output to the MS, and use the standalone controller for tuning.
As to the relays, a few $5 relays and inline fuses in a plastic box.
My understanding was the stimulator was for debugging/testing the build when you build your own unit.
It's not like you'd pick up a reprogrammed GM computer at the local parts house either.
STDog said:
Autotune helps with the tuning...won't do your fine tuning of course. 12x12 tables is what allows your full WB resolution. TJ, can explain in better detail for sure. I don't have to have WB, but it would really help with the tuning. If I don't have fully supported WB I don't see any advantage over the GM PCM's. Same thing with emulated NB. Might as well just use the cheap GM stuff that I don't have to spend all day soldering together. That's my personal rationale anyway. Ok, at the risk of beating a dead horse - 2 relays, 2 relay sockets and harnesses, fuses, fuse holders, connectors, and a box. Try to buy all that for 10 bucks at Autozone. Not a big deal just one of those hidden cost/nickle and dime issues people don't understand. I know many people would just plug crimp-on connectors directly into the relays and call it good, but those are same people I find stuck on the side of the road. Might get lucky and find a suitable relay/fuse box at the junkyard though.
Not sure why you would think the stimulator could only be used during the build stage? Is it going to self-destruct after the build or something? lol j/k From DIYAutotune: "The Stimulator board allows you to fully bench-test all standard inputs and outputs on your MegaSquirt unit. It will apply power to the MegaSquirt ECU and allow you to simulate engine sensor inputs such as the ignition system RPM signal, the Intake Temperature Sensor, the Coolant Temperature Sensor, Throttle Position Sensor and the Oxygen Sensor. You can manipulate these signals via the potentiometer knobs on the stimulator to simulate different engine running conditions."
I would carry a $35 junkyard PCM as my spare. They're a dime a dozen in the yards around here. Just as easy to burn 2 chips as one for spares. Make sense?
shiftless
Active Member
scout said:
This is incorrect. The MS1, with MSNS-Extra firmware loaded, has 12x12 tables and full wideband support.
So does your factory fuse box. You can draw power for the MS directly from the existing ignition power circuit, or practically any other "hot in start/run" circuit of your choosing.
If you are using a relay for an idle solenoid, then you have already screwed up. A proper idle control system consists of a stepper motor or PWM idle valve, not a simple on/off solenoid. If you are on a budget and just want to hack something together, then the on/off solenoid may suffice, but if you were on a budget you wouldn't be talking about spending hundreds of extra dollars on unnecessary components.
Why would you need two relays? You only need ONE relay to trigger the fuel pump, along with a simple inline fuse. I am fairly certain you could pick these components up for less than $10 at AutoZone. The MS gets it power directly from the ignition circuit, as stated above, and you're done. There is nothing else that would require a relay or fuse.
OK, I find this a bit insulting. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using standard spade connectors to connect to your ONE relay. This is standard procedure. Relay sockets are just overkill. You won't find ME stuck on the side of the road due to a wiring problem. Anybody who has ever seen one of the many wiring harnesses I've built would agree that there is no half-assing or corner cutting involved in my work.
As far as hidden costs and nickel and dime issues go, you are the one creating these issues. Just because you can choose to spend thousands of dollars to set an MS up a certain way doesn't mean that it can't be done correctly for a quarter of the cost.
No, it's just next to useless after the build is completed. When a MS is built and wired up correctly they last practically forever. I have never seen one fail from any cause that couldn't be traced directly back to assembly error. In the unlikely event that a component does fail, odds are you're not going to fix it on the side of the road with a multimeter and stimulator anyway. If you want a stimulator just in case, that's cool, but it is not necessary in any sense of the word.
STDog
Active Member
shiftless said:
Agreed for most users.
I can see a use for developers working on new code and/or hardware options.
Of course how many users are ever going to even look at the code, let alone compile it.
I would of course. Just because I could. :banghead:
shiftless said:
Good to know. What about Autotune?
shiftless said:
From the megamanual relay board section: Four Mini-ATO-style fuses (Buss Fuse ATM-XX) protect the fuel pump, main power, and both injector banks
shiftless said:
From the megamanual relay board secton: Three on-board relays - main power, fuel pump, and fast idle solenoid Yes I know there are different types of idle solenoids
shiftless said:
See above. The box alone will cost more than $10.
shiftless said:
Not sure why you would think I was talking about you. I've never seen any of your stuff. I'm sure the quality is exceptional.
shiftless said:
Because I actually drive my vehicle and don't want to get stuck on the side of the road for 3 days until a $400 v3.57 can get airmailed to me?
Thousands of dollars?
shiftless said:
So you're saying you wouldn't use your stimulator to troubleshoot a failed MS? Anything electronic can fail. Thousands of factory computers do everyday.
shiftless
Active Member
scout said:
Yep, that works pretty well, though I've found that using MegaLogViewer is a much easier/quicker/better way to get the map dialed in.
This is pretty much extra crap that's not really needed. The MS can be powered off an existing fused circuit, and both injector banks are already protected by on-board circuitry on v3.0 and 3.57 boards, leaving only the fuel pump fuse.
Again, no need for a main power relay if the MS power is coming off an existing switched (hot in run/start) circuit. The MS really does not draw that much power; it mainly *grounds* various loads like the injectors, coil, etc.
I was just pointing out that using spade connectors to hook up a relay isn't what I or most people would call half-assing it. That's a standard, accepted, and completely reliable way of doing it.
The flaw here is you are assuming that spending all this extra money for miscellaneous stuff is going to increase your unit's reliability. This is not necessarily the case.
No. I use my stimulator all the time. I also build these computers for a living, so it was worth every penny. But the average guy buying a pre-built MS will never have a need for the stimulator, nor would most of these folks be capable of using it to troubleshoot a failed unit. If you want one anyways and think you may have a use for it, I would encourage you to buy it, but it's hardly fair to use the cost of the stimulator as an argument against the MS when most people would never have a use for it. For that matter, the cost of the USB adapter shouldn't be included either for a fair comparison with other systems, since you would need the same adapter in either case, unless the other system includes some sort of native USB interface (which most don't.)
I would even go so far as to argue that integrating wideband control circuitry into an EFI controller is a bit wasteful. A good quality wideband controller is complicated and not cheap to build, so it adds cost to the unit, and if it's integrated into the ECU then it's pretty much married to that vehicle. If I go out and buy an LM1 or other controller setup then I can use that to tune multiple vehicles, both EFI and carbed, thus I get a lot more value for my dollar. And if something fails inside the wideband control circuit, the whole ECU has to come apart/be shipped off to diagnose and fix it.
73eldoconvert
Active Member
That was a heck of a run there, I will see if I can remember what I was going to respond to.
Autotune: People seem to expect it to be perfect and one drive around the block does the trick. That is for sure not the case. Before you even try and turn it on you have to have the car about 75% drivable. You then can use it for a few runs to get things closer, then I find that MLV and manual tweaking is the way to go unless you have a co pilot and can do it on the fly.
Stim: If you are building the board I would buy the stim. If you are unsure if you can build the main board order the stim first and try that. It has the 37 pin connector on it which has a bunch of pins fairly close together and also has a transistor which is the smallest thing with the closest pins on the 3.0 boards. If you cant handle the stim dont even think about trying to build a main board.
Idle control: The GM TBI's came with a stepper IAC so you dont need the relay. Im using the relay and a solenoid for mine because on the early holleys it was an option to get the stepper but the solenoid was stock.
Relays fueses: Like I said I dont for sure have a better idea. I think for my next one I am going to spend some time at the junkyard and run most of the sensor wires direct to the ecu. There were a lot of cars that had a few relays on the firewall with a big molded connector and a long looking harness. I may also look for some of the relay fuse boxes that sit on the fenders but that may be overkill. Price should be right though. Lots of extra fuses and relays included.
I just looked at the clock and got to go to work to pay for these toys.... i will try to remember to respond to the rest later.
Autotune: People seem to expect it to be perfect and one drive around the block does the trick. That is for sure not the case. Before you even try and turn it on you have to have the car about 75% drivable. You then can use it for a few runs to get things closer, then I find that MLV and manual tweaking is the way to go unless you have a co pilot and can do it on the fly.
Stim: If you are building the board I would buy the stim. If you are unsure if you can build the main board order the stim first and try that. It has the 37 pin connector on it which has a bunch of pins fairly close together and also has a transistor which is the smallest thing with the closest pins on the 3.0 boards. If you cant handle the stim dont even think about trying to build a main board.
Idle control: The GM TBI's came with a stepper IAC so you dont need the relay. Im using the relay and a solenoid for mine because on the early holleys it was an option to get the stepper but the solenoid was stock.
Relays fueses: Like I said I dont for sure have a better idea. I think for my next one I am going to spend some time at the junkyard and run most of the sensor wires direct to the ecu. There were a lot of cars that had a few relays on the firewall with a big molded connector and a long looking harness. I may also look for some of the relay fuse boxes that sit on the fenders but that may be overkill. Price should be right though. Lots of extra fuses and relays included.
I just looked at the clock and got to go to work to pay for these toys.... i will try to remember to respond to the rest later.