Do we Need another choice in Intakes for the 472/500

[dave brode]

I REPEAT:

The topic is ANOTHER choice in intakes.

Tom can tell me to shut up, but it ain't 1475 vs MTS vs 2115

 

[mt83]

My apologies Tom and Dave. I guess the questions that needs to be answered is still in question. My response would be: Without the proper testing done, in comparison of the intakes that already exist, is there any way to answer this question?

 

[dave brode]

I agree with JW that it's a shame that we can't see the dyno sheets from the previously linked ford intake test. Then again, a different engine combo might have made for much different results. I must admit that I find it odd that the TorkerII did not do well for torque, although at a glance, it looks like maybe it would do ok for a single plane http://www.walt-n-anne.com/Ranchero/shootout.html

Again, I know that we aren't ford guys, but some may find this data interesting;

http://www.reincarnation-automotive.com ... index.html

It may not apply, but here are some other ford intake links for those that like to wonder;

http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread ... ngle+plane
http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread ... ght=torker
http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread ... ngle+plane
http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread ... ght=torker
http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread ... ngle+plane
http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread ... ngle+plane

This isn't a "ford intake choice" thread, but fwiw, here is the price adapters. Not ideal on port alignment;
http://www.pricemotorsport.com/Intake_A ... ap-23.html

This isn't a ford intake on caddy engine thread, but I thought that the data above might be of interest. The question is, do we need another choice.

Dave

 

[dave brode]

My apologies Tom and Dave. I guess the questions that needs to be answered is still in question. My response would be: Without the proper testing done, in comparison of the intakes that already exist, is there any way to answer this question?

Ok, I'll mud too.

That's a good question, Matt. I'll start a thread.

Dave

 

[cadillac512]

I'd like to see two more intakes.
First,a Performer RPM air-gap type dual plane that's about 1"-2" taller than the 2115 and has the center divider solid all the way to the square bore carb pad.
Second,a Victor/Team G type single plane with roughly rectangular runners that closely match the Cad heads.
Ok....I'll add a third. A freakin' TUNNEL RAM! Sign me up right now.

It may never happen because cost vs sales isn't there but hey....you asked. :yes:


Terry

 

[JW]

Terry

Do you mean rectangular thruout the entire length of the runner from the plenum ?

 

[cadillac512]

Terry

Do you mean rectangular thruout the entire length of the runner from the plenum ?

Not perfectly rectangular but more so than the MTS has.....more like the Victor 460. I have a Victor here that I got from Maddog....modded to fit an adaptor plate. I don't like the adaptor plate at all since it turns the air sharply on several ports,but the plenum-to-runner entrances look good to me. I just think it would be nice to try one built that way....might work great and might flop. :scratchchin:

Terry

 

[JW]

Well here is the deal with that.

I went over to Bradshaws to see what could be done to fix the original intake and to be honest I think that Dick gave us a very good place to start and at some point in time the original Bulldog design might have a use for a very limited number of engine that can use the big runners.

Keep in mind when i dropped the whole project on him the intake that I took him was a edelbrock victor 460 and i wanted something "similar" and with a lil less cross section in the runners.

Anyhow

We decided to just shrink the whole thing and make the runners about 5/16 longer and shrink the entire inside of the intake about 1/8 in spots and a lil over a 1/4 on the floor then blend the transition from the floor into the runners.

A guy who did some headwork for TI back in the day(also did the heads for the first EMC engine) cut up a original BD intake and adapted it to a 460 ford and it was better than the ford motorsports ,edelbrock super victor or another offering that i cannot at this time remember.

It was not a crazy roller cammed engine but a street strip engine that about anyone could put together ,I know it had a pretty big flat tappet cam ,what else im unsure.

This led me to believe that we were on the right track and since the modified/new version of the manifold was of the same design and once we get a solid lock on the aluminum head and get them flowing some good numbers we can get an honest idea of how the intake really works.

Fast foreward to the most current changes tot he MTS FR aluminum head I took the entire project under one roof for that reason and the fact that Darrin Morgan was at the time working for profiler and when i asked him what he thought of the intake ,he had nothing but good to say about it so we are gonna stick with the design as it stands and once we have tested it with a number of combos both mild and wild there could be some changes,money allowing :greedy:

 

[PROSTOCKTOM]

I wonder what the status of that airboat intake CPP was going to be building a year and a half ago?

That would be a different intake, but I'm sure it was for their heads only.

Tom

 

[cadillac512]

Well here is the deal with that.

I went over to Bradshaws to see what could be done to fix the original intake and to be honest I think that Dick gave us a very good place to start and at some point in time the original Bulldog design might have a use for a very limited number of engine that can use the big runners.

Keep in mind when i dropped the whole project on him the intake that I took him was a edelbrock victor 460 and i wanted something "similar" and with a lil less cross section in the runners.

Anyhow

We decided to just shrink the whole thing and make the runners about 5/16 longer and shrink the entire inside of the intake about 1/8 in spots and a lil over a 1/4 on the floor then blend the transition from the floor into the runners.

A guy who did some headwork for TI back in the day(also did the heads for the first EMC engine) cut up a original BD intake and adapted it to a 460 ford and it was better than the ford motorsports ,edelbrock super victor or another offering that i cannot at this time remember.

It was not a crazy roller cammed engine but a street strip engine that about anyone could put together ,I know it had a pretty big flat tappet cam ,what else im unsure.

This led me to believe that we were on the right track and since the modified/new version of the manifold was of the same design and once we get a solid lock on the aluminum head and get them flowing some good numbers we can get an honest idea of how the intake really works.

Fast foreward to the most current changes tot he MTS FR aluminum head I took the entire project under one roof for that reason and the fact that Darrin Morgan was at the time working for profiler and when i asked him what he thought of the intake ,he had nothing but good to say about it so we are gonna stick with the design as it stands and once we have tested it with a number of combos both mild and wild there could be some changes,money allowing :greedy:

Good information. It will indeed be interesting to see how the current intake works with a more serious head. I know it is doing the job on my hi-ports,but as always we wonder if there is a stone left unturned. Perhaps the current plenum entry and runner configuration is an improvement over more rectangular shapes. I do like to toss this stuff around in my head though.
I still want my tunnel ram!

Terry

 

[PROSTOCKTOM]

Terry,

So other than raising the carb pad up and the divider what improvements would you want to see in a RPM style Performer?

Would you want it Air Gap as well ?

Since you've more than likely played around with it as much or more than any other Cadillac owner I'd say you have the best idea

of what's needed to make it work right.

Tom

 

[StanJ]

I'd like to see two more intakes.
First,a Performer RPM air-gap type dual plane that's about 1"-2" taller than the 2115 and has the center divider solid all the way to the square bore carb pad.
Second,a Victor/Team G type single plane with roughly rectangular runners that closely match the Cad heads.
Ok....I'll add a third. A freakin' TUNNEL RAM! Sign me up right now.

It may never happen because cost vs sales isn't there but hey....you asked. :yes:


Terry

Jerry Potter and I have had serious discussions regarding all three of these concepts at various times during the last few years, Terry. Two of them (the ultra performance dual plane and the tunnel ram) have progressed to the point of CAD models ready for SLA prototyping. Unfortunately, you're right about potential sales not justifying the cost of either/both projects at the present time. Probably, the only way either will become a reality is if someone takes a "dammit, I want one, I've got the $$$, and I'm gonna make it happen" attitude.

Not holding my breath.

 

[cadillac512]

Tom,yes I'd vote air gap as well. Although the heat transferred to my 2115 in the T isn't bad for my open engine compartment it is a real factor under a hot hood in the summer.
I know there is work to be done inside the 2115 to make the runners flow better. I'd also like to see plenty of meat in the port exit flange tops to raise the opening at least .200 for those who wish to get rid of the hook in the Cad head. Cheat the runner angle to give the advantage to the raised tops. Cast in Injector bosses just in case.

Stan-

Good to know I'm not any crazier than you guys. lol Now if you'd just have a mishap at the foundry resulting in one of the 1475 manifolds having core shift in the direction of stock Cad ports.....well you know where to send it.

Terry

 

[StanJ]

Stan-

Good to know I'm not any crazier than you guys. lol Now if you'd just have a mishap at the foundry resulting in one of the 1475 manifolds having core shift in the direction of stock Cad ports.....well you know where to send it.

Terry

Terry,
You do realize that a 1475, a bandsaw, a TIG rig, a couple of pounds of rod, and a week's worth of work is all you'd need to make that happen anyway, don't you?

 

[dave brode]

Stan-

Good to know I'm not any crazier than you guys. lol Now if you'd just have a mishap at the foundry resulting in one of the 1475 manifolds having core shift in the direction of stock Cad ports.....well you know where to send it.

Terry

Terry,
You do realize that a 1475, a bandsaw, a TIG rig, a couple of pounds of rod, and a week's worth of work is all you'd need to make that happen anyway, don't you?

Stan,

The 1475 for iron would be "another choice", although, imo, the doesn't exist high rise dual plane would suit my 3200 rpm stall, 3960 lb truck best.

I've thought about that too. How would you do it? Hack the base off, slice the runners and shrink them?

Then again, one might have better results with making irons work with it as is. [another thread from the past] Oh, Matt, did that guy ever get back to you?

Dave

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

The 1475 for iron would be "another choice", although, imo, the doesn't exist high rise dual plane would suit my 3200 rpm stall, 3960 lb truck best.

Dave

I agree. As much as I'd like to see what a big Caddy would do with a tunnel ram and a pair of 1050's on top of a pair of really good heads, I think an updated dual plane would make more sense (to the extent that any of this stuff really does right now) for a lot more people.

 

[mt83]

I wonder what the status of that airboat intake CPP was going to be building a year and a half ago?

That would be a different intake, but I'm sure it was for their heads only.

Tom

That project ended with the production of the 1475. We still have the ideas and drawings on the airboat intake but it can't be justified currently. If the economy and popularity rises up we will consider it again. We still want to do it. It's just not cost efficient currently. If someone were to redesign or make another dual plane manifold. I would like to see the plenum raised like an rpm and the runners somewhat equalized. So basically an RPM air gap style lol.

Stan,

The 1475 for iron would be "another choice", although, imo, the doesn't exist high rise dual plane would suit my 3200 rpm stall, 3960 lb truck best.

I've thought about that too. How would you do it? Hack the base off, slice the runners and shrink them?

Then again, one might have better results with making irons work with it as is. [another thread from the past] Oh, Matt, did that guy ever get back to you?

Dave

I have gotten a hold of him a couple times. He hasn't sent me any pictures although in our last conversation he was doing some plenum mods to the plenum he wanted to try. I would like to see the work he has done to the port. I will try to get him on the phone this week.

 

[PROSTOCKTOM]

Damn it, The intake thread sure is getting replies like flies.

Looks like it's a much more popular topic than my transmission thread lol lol lol

I'd sure like to see the CAD concept that Stan has for the CPP ultra high rpm dual plane intake.

It might not ever happen, but If people had a visual it might help it come to light some day.

A good stick and carrot can work wonders.

Tom

 

[mt83]

Yes it can Tom. Unfortunately that information resides in the restricted folder. lol That is assuming we have one of those. Maybe we'll just do like the government and call it classified. We release a lot of information that maybe should and some that maybe shouldn't be available but the drawings and designs on unfinished products fall into definitely not. Sorry to all that would like to see it.

 

[MOCRUZN]

I believe Miles had a edelbrock on his engine and have never seen a dyno sheet on it

Yes I do, JW, technically. It still has the factory casting number but that is the limit of the original design elements remaining.

StanJ has performed various mods to fit CPP heads; a full height divider (no gap), 3" spacer, 4150 base carb. The 4150 discharge flow pattern is cnc'd through the spacer all the way to the floor of the plenum, the runner entry into the two planes is hand blended from the plenum.

It remains a dual plane but it isn't a 2115 now.

Miles


Edit : Jan. 15, 2011

I have been asked by EZ, JW, and others what the results of all the 2115 mods was. The mods done, from the outset, was never intended to be used in the absence of the the rest of the engine combination. The 2115 we redesigned is not a stand alone piece. Thus, no before/after data exists.

My car, we refer to her as, Ruby, really is what has driven the engine design. Ruby is a 64 year old full figured four door fast back Olds with a WS6 T/A chassis makeover including Truck Arm rear suspension. A 4500 lb canyon carver and long distance cruiser.

The engine build concentrated on Tq from just above idle to 4000rpm . I spend 98 % of my driving time below 3000rpm, so, I have tried to make choices, create the pieces as necessary, resulting in total reliability, excellent driveability, big torque, and over 20mpg on 87 octane at cruise . The mpg remains to be seen when Ruby hits the road again.

The power looks like this ...
. RPM . . 32*Adv.87 . . .36*Adv.87 . . 36*Adv.93 . . 518ci/11.5cr

2500 . . . 272/573. . . . . 268/563. . . . 275/575. . . . . 280/589

3000 . . . 335/586 . . . . .336/584. . . . 336/587. . . . . 334/585

3500 . . . 395/590. . . . . 397/595. . . . 400/601. . . . . 398/598

4000 . . . 465/611. . . . . 464/609. . . . 468/614. . . . . 483/577

4500 . . . 485/565. . . . . 485/565. . . . 490/572. . . . . 486/567


Please note I have listed the octane used during the test .. all data is with the dual plane on my engine, other than the last column on the right, which is a single plane on different engine (4.38"x4.3", FT Hyd, .050 quench). My engine is 4.36"x4.15", cr of 10.3, quench at .035", solid roller.

My dual plane, as Stan has redesigned it, works very well. Its all in the combination.

Miles
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