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81 Trans Am 500 Caddy

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PJ McCoy said:
Mad Cadder,thanks for the feed back,the block is a 1976. So i believe they are the 120 heads. Yeah the purchase of the cam was an emotional one for sure :cloud9: me and dad, But reality seems to bite me every time! .... It seems like my budget is going to be blown very soon. Btw, I could be entered in a CSOB contest. lol ... this is exactly what Marty was telling me, Know what you want before you buy, Plan your build and ask lots of questions, Over the phone conversation. I thought i was making the right choice.

If i get the rocker shaft assembly, that would give me more lift correct? would that help the little cam? Just brain storming to try to make this work if possible. #15+new lifters+shaft rockers 299.95+595.95=895.90 not counting the push rods.
#15 RPM bands on this camshaft can exceed the boundary of safety for engines with stock connecting rods. Forged “H” or "I" beam connecting rods are preferred. If you want durability, aftermarket rocker assemblies are also required at this level of power and ported heads are strongly recommended to facilitate the build. MTS site.

Boy how i wish i didnt buy it at all. very discouraging. I still have allot to do to the car, Front break lines, rebuild the carb, dizzy and trans. Ive got the rebuild kit for the trans, and the carb. Saw a post from Dave B. with the site for the rebuild kit for the carb, so i ordered it. and i havent finished the head work. Allot to be done, i have time to save some Money up. Any input from the other guys would also be helpful.
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PJ,

First, don't get discouraged. I've got dibbs on that territory!

Reality can be frustrating but much of that frustration is often of our own making. Certainly you might feel that it would have been better to not have purchased anything other than the stock engine based on the obvious performance gains it inherently provided. That old rule, that there is no substitute for cubic inches still holds true.

The question is not always "what to do" but "when to do it." Like you, most on this forum have limited monies with which to work. Most of us would like all of the goodies that are now out there, from roller camshafts to aluminum heads. All is takes it cubic money to feed those cubic inches!

I'm an old guy on a limited income. At this stage of life my worn out body limits me as much as my limited cash. Therefore, I space out my purchases and my energy. My MTS camshaft, the Smith Brother adjustable pushrods, the Edelbrock intake manifold – all were purchased ages ago as fund came available. A ‘few dollars here and a few dollars there' is called doing it piecemeal - and it works.

While your Herbert cam may not be ideal no law says that you are required to keep it for your lifetime. Yes, Marty's MTS 15 camshaft may clean the Herbert cam's clock but so what? Go with what you've got, save your money for a particular ‘next buy.' Then over time pull together the parts for that next major overhaul.

In other words, don't be the source of your own frustration. Don't try to do everything today. Don't try to match what others are doing because it is a safe bet they don't have your life, your income, your kids and the demands of a young family. Do it your way, for you.

Best,

d
 
PJ McCoy said:
Mad Cadder,thanks for the feed back,the block is a 1976. So i believe they are the 120 heads. Yeah the purchase of the cam was an emotional one for sure :cloud9: me and dad, But reality seems to bite me every time! So this cam is really just like stock? should just keep the one i got in there. If i were to go with the mts 15 i would have to change alot in engine correct? I know the MTS10 will work with stock rockers,Just not sure how long they will last.. It seems like my budget is going to be blown very soon. Btw, I could be entered in a CSOB contest. lol I dont want to build this again, putting in a cam im not happy with. this is exactly what Marty was telling me, Know what you want before you buy, Plan your build and ask lots of questions, Over the phone conversation. I thought i was making the right choice.
If i get the rocker shaft assembly, that would give me more lift correct? would that help the little cam? Just brain storming to try to make this work if possible. #15+new lifters+shaft rockers 299.95+595.95=895.90 not counting the push rods.
#15
RPM bands on this camshaft can exceed the boundary of safety for engines with stock connecting rods. Forged “H” or "I" beam connecting rods are preferred. If you want durability, aftermarket rocker assemblies are also required at this level of power and ported heads are strongly recommended to facilitate the build. MTS site.
Boy how i wish i didnt buy it at all. very discouraging. I still have allot to do to the car, Front break lines, rebuild the carb, dizzy and trans. Ive got the rebuild kit for the trans, and the carb. Saw a post from Dave B. with the site for the rebuild kit for the carb, so i ordered it. and i havent finished the head work. Allot to be done, i have time to save some Money up.
Any input from the other guys would also be helpful.
Click to expand...

The rockers will give you a tiny bit more figured lift.. more important they wont defelect ..

The big thing is the cam lobes aintt gonna change... The intake to exhaust durations arent a good combo.. It will kill power
and not give the rpm powerband to make up for the effective bleed off from cylinder pressure or overlap created..

As for the 15..
You don't need ported heads to run it it is a mild cam in a Caddy.. Of course it will make more power with ported heads and any cam
the 15 isn't big enough to require it..

You don need aftermarket rods with the 15.. Iam not going to tell you don't get them
but I have went way past that many many many times on stock rods..

I ran the cam grind I posted in my 472 with 902 heads milled .09 on a stock bore and piston 71 472 that had over 340,000 miles on it
with stock rods.. all was done to it was a rering and I put new bearings in..
This 472 went into my 81 CDV.. I street raced it every week all summer long for years . Even though it was a open axle it also seen the track.
I shifted it at 5800 thousands of times sometimes as high as 6200 .. If you like I can give you more examples of builds I have done with
the stock rods

Those rods also survived 5500 on nitrous ... As long as the bearings are good they aint gonna break and if they are bad it wont matter
what rods you have.. The stock rods are not cast but Armasteel

Sell the cam you have to offset some cost.. You may not need new prods.. check to see first.. The stock pushrods will handle 340 lbs Ive done it alot
 
PJ McCoy said:
What do you think about the cam size to small, big what?

PJ
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It'll work, but it's less than ideal imo. Unless you are going to run tall gears and stock converter and want a pretty smooth idle, it's a little small. Your 4500 rpm max will suit that cam for sure. Most would say that the 15* spread on duration is more than the caddy needs. Most would say that they need little if any add'l, exh duration.

Fwiw on cams and such:
I had a re-ringed 8.6-1 compression '75 500 in my truck some years ago. Cam was a Howards [292/302] 232/240 at .050", 112* lsa, .536" lift, iirc. It ran best shifting at 4700-4800. It idled with a little chop, but was very docile. Point: The big caddy can use 10-15* more than a typical 300-350".

Btw, you may not need different length pushrods. I would assemble it first. Also, you wrote LS7 valve springs. Are you sure [maybe LS6?] I assume that those retainers are comp #787.

You do not need aftermarket rods.

Dave

p.s. - depending on which guide o.d. those seals are for, be careful with them. The guides will need to be machined for them. the guide o.d. will; not be centered on the valve. Sometimes, due to core shift, the guides do not clean up even with a .530" cutter. I would be leery of cutting a stock guide any smaller than .530".
 
dave brode said:
http://www.cadillacpower.com/forum/download/file.php?id=20514&mode=view

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8224&hilit=value+springs
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Dave they are the ls6 I looked at them this morning, they have one yellow strip. The heads have already the machine work done to fit. i took the spring with me and left it with my buddy. he only removed enough for the spring to fit with just a little wiggle room. Ive read every post you and other said about this spring and work required about the heads to make them work. this site is a wealth of info. thanks for your help.
Ok here is were im at. $940.00 bucks left. Im going to sell my herbert cam! I cant see putting it in just to replace in 2yrs or so. Ill take the hit and learn from it! Im not even going to speculate how much i can get for it. What ever it is i'll add that to the $940..

i would like to here what you guys think about the CSOB build i could take with this motor. Im trying to win that title.haha! btw please dont take the caps on csob as me yell, making fun at myself. I would never want to disrespect anyone,

So with everyone chipping in on ideas as a brain storm effect i my be able to regroup allot quicker. There is wisdom in the multitude of counselors. This time i will heed Marty's advice. My motor is apart, the crank and rods are still in the block. porting the 120 heads, knocking down the bumps and casting marks as i've never done this before. The stock intake is ported. its ready. So tell me what ya'think.

Thanks to every one that is helping me. :beer2:
 
Just my opinion .. Don't take offense.. I have gone the csob way but never looked at it as such

as far as budget this is very important set your goal and ... it takes whatever it takes to make it right and reliable ..
Pinched penny's and cut corners often end up costing Big $$ and making for huge dissapointments

Bean counting is for management [ and it dosent work for them either ] not hot rodders..

Clarify what you meant by "CSOB I could take with this motor" ??
 
Mad no offence taken, honest and straight! Nothing wrong with that! CSOB= Building on the cheap as much is possible.
Parts I need:
better cam, Size? 15 is what i want.
shaft rocker assembly,
pushrods.

I have read other threads and everyone who has the #15 cam loves it. Hands down. I would like to get a used R/S if anyone has one for sale. I will do this the right way even if it means waiting. I want it right and I want it to last. When I get the parts I need I'll be asking questions about the install. Thanks.
used rocker shaft for sale anyone?
 
PJ McCoy,

> Dave they are the ls6 I looked at them this morning, they have one yellow strip. The heads have already the machine work done to fit. i took the spring with me and left it with my buddy. he only removed enough for the spring to fit with just a little wiggle room. Ive read every post you and other said about this spring and work required about the heads to make them work. this site is a wealth of info. thanks for your help.

Glad to help, but I'm still confused. The older LS-6 springs were yellow, later ones are blue. Are your GM, or something else? Most of the aftermarket beehives [for LSs] fit the caddy spring boss ok. the yellow/blue are fatter wire and did not.


Imo, your stock valved 120cc heads will limit rpm to 4800 or so. Due to your budget, I would ask Marty about a cam that would be safe at that rpm with stock rockers. Really, with little head work and stock valves, I don't think something a little over .500" would give much away over a taller lift grind.

Dave
 
I highly recommend going cheap on a street car. I went all out on mine bc I have issues lol. I got caught up in the numbers and what I wanted it to be on paper. I'd say get a 15 cam but once you do (warning) its a snowball effect on parts to support the cam and make it work best and it's addicting learning about each item to make your engine bad ass as possible.....the reason I have the parts for sale is bc I was going to go the simple rout. I love my build and don't regret anything but it was expensive and I'll rarely get into power band since I'm 99% on the street with it. You need a cam, cloyes timing set, shaft rockers (for insurance) all new gaskets and a nice holley or quick fuel carb and enjoy the hell out it. You'd get anyone in your area off a red light on the street I bet. Just my thoughts on keeping things simple for you
 
Dave B, Thanks for helping with the build to get it done right. The springs are GM, They all did fit but most were tight, like your post said, i had to screw them on almost. My buddy John, just took enough material off so all the springs fit. Its odd, the pics i found on google with yellow are all yellow. No strips. Mine have a yellow strip. I did see blue l/s springs with all blue paint on the springs and some with the strip. The yellow is hard to see on my springs. I'm going with the #15 cam. That way, if i want to upgrade in the future, ill have the cam,springs, and pushrods.

So after evaluating were I am at and were I want to be this is my goal:
1. Rocker Shaft Cad Co. stage one good for 5000 rpm( stays within my range) should be here after payment is received.
2. #15 cam from MTS, lifters and push rods, I gotta do this right (to many I wish I would have posts from the past)
3. Install the ARP connecting rods bolts.
4. Finish smoothing the heads while I wait for the toys to come in. Stock intake already gutted, looks good.
5. Assembly and paint the block.

Just installed the new sub frame with all new parts, upper and lower bushings, ball joints and tie rod ends, I should have said everything!
I twisted the original, all 30+ year old parts,weak and no body mount on driver side. I was wondering what that thump was when I gassed on her. I also popped the right front windshield out with the trim :eyepopping: Just by screwing around. :shakehead:

I sold a gun I had to get more stuff. National 1969, I think I am addicted, I've been thinking of stuff I don't need, oh no whats happening to me.
 
PJ McCoy said:
Dave B, Thanks for helping with the build to get it done right.

So after evaluating were I am at and were I want to be this is my goal:
1. Rocker Shaft Cad Co. stage one good for 5000 rpm( stays within my range) should be here after payment is received.
2. #15 cam from MTS, lifters and push rods, I gotta do this right (to many I wish I would have posts from the past)
3. Install the ARP connecting rods bolts.
4. Finish smoothing the heads while I wait for the toys to come in. Stock intake already gutted, looks good.
5. Assembly and paint the block.

I twisted the original, all 30+ year old parts,weak and no body mount on driver side. I was wondering what that thump was when I gassed on her. I also popped the right front windshield out with the trim :eyepopping: Just by screwing around. :shakehead:

I sold a gun I had to get more stuff. National 1969, I think I am addicted, I've been thinking of stuff I don't need, oh no whats happening to me.
Click to expand...

It's a DISEASE Bro., a Disease. Get into a good 12 step program as soon as you can!

Doc d (take two aspirin and call me in the morning. My bill is in the mail) :devil:
 
Darius said:
PJ McCoy said:
Dave B, Thanks for helping with the build to get it done right.

So after evaluating were I am at and were I want to be this is my goal:
1. Rocker Shaft Cad Co. stage one good for 5000 rpm( stays within my range) should be here after payment is received.
2. #15 cam from MTS, lifters and push rods, I gotta do this right (to many I wish I would have posts from the past)
3. Install the ARP connecting rods bolts.
4. Finish smoothing the heads while I wait for the toys to come in. Stock intake already gutted, looks good.
5. Assembly and paint the block.
I twisted the original, all 30+ year old parts,weak and no body mount on driver side. I was wondering what that thump was when I gassed on her. I also popped the right front windshield out with the trim :eyepopping: Just by screwing around. :shakehead:

I sold a gun I had to get more stuff. National 1969, I think I am addicted, I've been thinking of stuff I don't need, oh no whats happening to me.
Click to expand...

It's a DISEASE Bro., a Disease. Get into a good 12 step program as soon as you can!

Doc d (take two aspirin and call me in the morning. My bill is in the mail) :devil:
Click to expand...
Doc, took 2, they didn't help. It's getting worse,my symptoms,I mean, my right foot is twitching, heart rate is up, and I can't stop smiling. :D , your not going to like it Doc. But I need smoke and Gasoline. :yes: :tired:
 
You wouldn't be the first to change your mind on cams. It just happens to be that I have a NIB MTS 15 cam at home if you are interested.
 
Bruce Marihugh said:
You wouldn't be the first to change your mind on cams. It just happens to be that I have a NIB MTS 15 cam at home if you are interested.
Click to expand...
That sounds good, What does NIB mean?
 
NIB= NEW IN BOX.... :D

The Caddy is a fairly wide engine. Mine needed me to trim the front bolt end on the upper control arm to allow engine to move around a bit.
 
pila78 said:
NIB= NEW IN BOX.... :D

The Caddy is a fairly wide engine. Mine needed me to trihe upper control arm to allow engine to move around a bit.
Click to expand...

Yeah mine was tight in there too I flipped the bolt around, on the driver side had to cut the bell off of the steering shaft. I used a collar and two set screws to hold the lower end up into the first half of the bell
 
Okay parts are coming in, its fun to get Stuff! Shop is clean, down to the last few things on my check-list before assembly. I'll be posting pics, I I can, somehow it doesn't take or upload like the others. I have tried it five ways to Wednesday, no luck! Went back to Tom's thread on how to post pics, wrote it down completely, still won't upload. Anyway getting closer and feeling like a child at Christmas. Just thinking about it makes me :D . Gotta go!
PJ
 
PJ McCoy said:
Okay parts are coming in, its fun to get Stuff! Shop is clean, down to the last few things on my check-list before assembly. Ill be posting pics, IF i can, somehow it doesn't take or upload like the others. Ive tried it five ways to Wednesday, no luck! Went back to Teds thread on how to post pics, wrote it down completely, still wont upload. Anyway getting closer and feeling like a child at Christmas. Just thinking about it makes me :D . Gotta go![/b]PJ
Click to expand...


Bathroom is down the hall, second door on the right.

d
 
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