Verry cool intake setup.

2JvLo

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Just surfing the web and found this setup... Got to admit that it's very cool. Anyone here that did itb's?

Oh, And nothing to do with this, But stock rods won't live at 6k right?

 

PJ McCoy

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That's amazing! I've often thought a Webber setup would be very responsive but the cost would not be worth the return. Like this, custom intake and 8 single carbs. Looks sweet but my ride will never be a Garage Queen. More like a Patina Street Bruiser. LOL, I am sure at this point my ego will be bruised, my sons Scion pulled away from me in an embarrassing manner. But I had a lot of rear tire smoke!!!!

Stock rods. No way!!! Everyone says they can handle 5-5.5k max. ARP bolts will keep them planted. But beyond that you would be on barrowed time. Julius ran them that high all time, I don't know how he kept them alive and well. Others would say, never count on them lasting at that level.
PJ
 

5one9

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Everybody repeats that stock rods wont take rpm. I personally don't know, but I'll be finding out soon enough. Richard Holdener will probably shed light on it soon.

It's odd that i don't find tons of pictures (or even one for that matter) of broken stock rods when Googling. I'm sure somebody will chime in with some pics.
 

PJ McCoy

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Everybody repeats that stock rods wont take rpm. I personally don't know, but I'll be finding out soon enough. Richard Holdener will probably shed light on it soon.

It's odd that i don't find tons of pictures (or even one for that matter) of broken stock rods when Googling. I'm sure somebody will chime in with some pics.
They talked about it a long time ago. Again, some said it all depends on how the motor was built. This maybe true. Tighter in some areas and loser in other areas. Read the sticky section here if not sure. If Courtney used forged rods to get to 6500 then I tend to lean on the 5500 max. Iirc the caps have the issue.

Maybe we could look into Buick rods as they have the same size journal. Maybe they could handle 6-6500 prm. Idk. I do remember Dave Brodie, a wizard as far as I am concerned, mentioning this. He is a stand up guy and worth his weight in gold. So, If you read about his pistes from the past, he will tell of his results and his options and what others say. There are a few other "old timers" no disrespect here, who are Caddy Daddies for sure. Most of what I day, I am just reguritating what they said the best of my abilities.

Buick Rods on a Caddy? You tell me! What do you think??

Oh My, I sound like Richard Now!!! LOL
PJ
 

cadillac512

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I ran 700+ passes shifting at 6000 on the 500 in the "T" with stock rods and ARP bolts stretched .007" They were still fine when I pulled that engine to run the "High Port" engine with 455 Olds rods. I spun that one 6500 on every shift. Stock rods are better than some folks think if good bolts installed at the correct clamping force are used.
...or maybe I was just lucky! ; )

And yeah-cool intake!

Terry
 

5one9

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They talked about it a long time ago. Again, some said it all depends on how the motor was built. This maybe true. Tighter in some areas and loser in other areas. Read the sticky section here if not sure. If Courtney used forged rods to get to 6500 then I tend to lean on the 5500 max. Iirc the caps have the issue.

Maybe we could look into Buick rods as they have the same size journal. Maybe they could handle 6-6500 prm. Idk. I do remember Dave Brodie, a wizard as far as I am concerned, mentioning this. He is a stand up guy and worth his weight in gold. So, If you read about his pistes from the past, he will tell of his results and his options and what others say. There are a few other "old timers" no disrespect here, who are Caddy Daddies for sure. Most of what I day, I am just reguritating what they said the best of my abilities.

Buick Rods on a Caddy? You tell me! What do you think??

Oh My, I sound like Richard Now!!! LOL
PJ

I think Buick rods are 2.25" journal. Olds rods are what you want. I had a set of 7" 425 Olds rods and they were plenty beefy.
 

PJ McCoy

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I think Buick rods are 2.25" journal. Olds rods are what you want. I had a set of 7" 425 Olds rods and they were plenty beefy.
Yip that's them!! Thats what happens when I regurgitate info from others. I get in the middle of that mess and slip and fall in it. Lol.
Mr.Yucky

Thank you for the correction. I'll go clean myself up now.
 

5one9

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I just happened to run Buick 455s a long time ago...………that rod journal size is burned into my brain.
 

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As Terry said stock rods with good bolts and prep are fine. Sean's turbo engine didn't bend a rod until about 775hp and 12 psi boost as I recall. As holdener is finding out the port location sucks on the caddy head. If you move the roof of the exhaust port up about 5/16 of an inch to get a straighter line out from the exhaust valve it will help uncork the engine.

Terry intake port project always interested me because moving the intake port up as well will be very beneficial to get rid of the flatness of the runner coming from the carb. The Bradshaw/bulldog head and the MTS head all have a flat dip at the port where the head and manifold meet. The flatness slows airflow. Boost helps but then you run into the exhaust port acting like a cork.

H beam rods are a nice piece but not as necessary as some other engines need. Your going to have to do a lot of work to spin it past 6200 and have it be useful. The engine I built for my blazer was done at 5900 rpm. The dyno showed that. But from 3500 to 5500 it would eat lots of quick street cars in stop light races.
 

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Bro. smalltruckbigcid,

If that is you, silhouetted in your avatar, you've changed! Care to go out for some dinner, libation or whatever?

HWC
 

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As Terry said stock rods with good bolts and prep are fine. Sean's turbo engine didn't bend a rod until about 775hp and 12 psi boost as I recall.

Do you happen to know what piston/rod combo he went with for his car? It made ridiculously beautiful power and I'm curious how it was built.
 

2JvLo

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Wow, Great response and a if i hear you guys it seems like the stockers might be stronger than suspected! More people that ran them to 6k often?
 

PJ McCoy

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Hmmmm. This seems like their is some black magic to know what the stock rods clamping force is.

So what's the best way to make the rods works with arp's?

Looks like the stock rods might handle the 8psi of boost. Crossing fingers.
PJ
 

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Hmmmm. This seems like their is some black magic to know what the stock rods clamping force is.

So what's the best way to make the rods works with arp's?

Looks like the stock rods might handle the 8psi of boost. Crossing fingers.
PJ


Hi PJ;
No magic....just use a bolt stretch gauge when tightening the ARP bolts, and use the stretch spec they supply with the bolts. Make sure you use their lube or something just as good so threads don't get damaged.
-----THEN! (very important step)....Have the bores in the big ends of the rods measured (while all tightened up to ARP spec) and honed to correct size using a proper rod honing machine. The added force of the good bolts and increased clamping will likely egg shape the rods and you will spin a bearing if this isn't addressed.
This is how I make my stock rods live (so far anyway!)

I don't see why rods treated as above wouldn't take 8# of boost as long as rpm stays reasonable. RPM will kill a rod before boost will since a rod is extremely strong when the load is pushing down from the top. It's when the piston is going down on the overlap stroke at high rpm that the rod is pulled hard from the bottom and the bolts are stressed that hurts them.

Terry
 

PJ McCoy

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Hi PJ;
No magic....just use a bolt stretch gauge when tightening the ARP bolts, and use the stretch spec they supply with the bolts. Make sure you use their lube or something just as good so threads don't get damaged.
-----THEN! (very important step)....Have the bores in the big ends of the rods measured (while all tightened up to ARP spec) and honed to correct size using a proper rod honing machine. The added force of the good bolts and increased clamping will likely egg shape the rods and you will spin a bearing if this isn't addressed.
This is how I make my stock rods live (so far anyway!)

I don't see why rods treated as above wouldn't take 8# of boost as long as rpm stays reasonable. RPM will kill a rod before boost will since a rod is extremely strong when the load is pushing down from the top. It's when the piston is going down on the overlap stroke at high rpm that the rod is pulled hard from the bottom and the bolts are stressed that hurts them.

Terry
This is amazing answer. Thank you so much for this. A quick question!

Placing the rods in a vise for the bolt stretching?
Is their another way? Forgive me, but I am ignorant on such matters.

Thanks again and again for the valuable insight
PJ
 
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PSYKO_Inc

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That probably explains why my buddy's engine failed a couple years ago. He had rebuilt a Vortec 350 to put in his El Camino, and used ARP rod bolts. I'm guessing he must have just torqued them to spec without a bolt stretch measurement. Rod bolts failed and put a rod through the oil pan during break-in, and we never figured out why. He ended up doing a carbed LS swap instead.
 

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PJ-
Yes, if the rods aren't being tightened in the engine as you're doing the final assembly, then tighten the bolts to correct stretch in a vise. BUT use something to protect the sides of the rods from the serrated vise jaws. Hardwood will work...I use two short pieces of aluminum angle. Anything smooth and strong,even steel if it's smooth.
The ARP bolts have small drillings on each end for the pointed tips of the stretch gauge to seat in. You assemble the rods and tighten the bolts just snug. Then read the stretch gauge to get a start figure and tighten the rod nuts until the correct amount of stretch is achieved (usually .005"-.007"). You do this each time the bolts are tightened...they will return to original length (or very close) when loosened.
PSYKO-
That can sure happen when good hard bolts are torqued to the stock OEM spec rather than the proper spec supplied by the bolt maker. The bolts rely on the stretch (like preloading a spring) to keep them tight. I've had ARP bolts take 30# more tq than a stock bolt to achieve proper stretch. Without that stretch the bolts will either come loose and vibrate out or they will loosen enough to let the cap start hammering against the rod and the impact will break the bolts or the rod.

Terry
 

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Just to clarify,
after the bolts are stretched this is the time to have them honed.

Then they will be ready for install.

PJ
 

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Absolutely. When we say "stretched" we are using it instead of the word "torqued". It is just a different, more accurate way to tighten a rod bolt properly. When a bolt is stretched to the correct dimension it is at its correct level of tension or "tightness".
Steps to do:
1`. Remove the old rod bolts and clean the holes of old oil/dirt and any burrs.
2. Install the new bolts, put the rod cap on, lube the threads and snug the nuts down enough to seat the bolt heads solidly in the rods. (maybe 30-40 # tq)
3. Loosen the nuts, then tighten again to "just snug" and install the stretch gauge.
4. Tighten the bolt until the stretch gauge just barely starts to move . Make note of the number on the gauge.
5. Continue tightening until the gauge shows the correct amount of bolt stretch.
6. The rods are ready to measure and hone to size.
7. Repeat this process when installing the rods in the engine. These rods will now be tightened this way any time they are used.

Terry

Here's ARP official instructions for the Cad rod bolts:

 
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