options for oil pressure/flow balance lines

Member 3508

Active Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2012
Messages
1,611
Reaction score
18
Points
38
I just want to add to this thread, in case someone is trying to use my method as an example. My method is essentially buying off the shelf parts, and threading them on. No hose assembly required.

All of this pertains to the rear hole that you must drill into the bell housing area. I drilled this hole in the wrong place, and then a second time still not in the best place. I didn't want to drill a 3rd hole so I made it work. But here is what you need to know to make the original method work.


When I drilled hole#1 (See picture "OIL LINE"), it was too far rearward on the block. I wanted the 90* rear port fitting to exit straight outwards from the bell area to have as little line as possible near the flywheel. But essentially the hole I drilled, was not in "line" with the fitting, it was too far back. This is why the line had to be made into an "S" shape, so I could snake it through the hole. The SS line does not like to bend into tight radii.
 

Attachments

  • Oil Line.jpg
    Oil Line.jpg
    250 KB · Views: 6,474

Member 3508

Active Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2012
Messages
1,611
Reaction score
18
Points
38
Here is what I ended up doing. Instead of the 2ft line, I went to a 3ft line that I had bought incorrectly to make what I had work. In the first two pictures, I am pointing to the spot where I SHOULD have drilled the hole. This spot would have allowed me to snake the line a bit, and use the setup in my diagram.


With the hole I actually drilled, the Y-Fitting ALWAYS ended up, right in the middle of the exhaust manifold. SO I had no choice but to pick a new route.


I like the custom length that Marty is using, but would prefer a direct shot to the rear port, and a T off to the oil psi port.





















 
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
586
Reaction score
15
Points
18
If the supply line is over the engine, could you have a "T" fitting on top of the oil pressure/ drivers side supply and then off to the passengers supply? If the supply was from a line running along the bottom of the cylinder head, could you run a "T" off the passenger side supply and then to the oil pressure/drivers supply side? This could be from the first hole you drilled in the bell housing.

Basically I am asking, could you run a "T" fitting to make things simpler in the back. Would a T flow enough?

John
 

Member 3508

Active Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2012
Messages
1,611
Reaction score
18
Points
38
The T would probably flow enough, but I don't like it.

I want the rear passenger port (Accepted as the most needing help) to have a direct supply of oil from the front.

I want the Oil pressure port to have a T-ed off or Y-ed off run so as to not rob from the rear port.


The lines I am using are the shortest preassembled ones available. Adding a T in my case wont make it any simpler or neater.



The easiest and neatest to plumb is exactly how Marty has done it, where the T goes to the back (90* turn) and the oil PSI port gets a straight shot.
 

Member 3508

Active Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2012
Messages
1,611
Reaction score
18
Points
38
Back from the dead!

I was reading about installing my oil accumulator into the Regal, and something kept jumping off the page at me that pertains to the Balance line as well. That is a CHECK VALVE!

This has always bothered about the front located oil pumps of the buick and caddy, that need to suck oil through a 3ft straw before it reaches the inlet of the pump. Vs. Chevy, Olds, Pontiac, and a bunch of other makes that have the oil pump essentially immersed in the oil.



So what are the opinions of adding a check valve into the balance line? Such as this one? Any concerns about flow?
http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/s ... /overview/




Think about this;
The oil line is fed from the front of the block. It is actually the very first "leak" in the oil path. That means, when I start my engine, nothing else is fed until the oil balance line is filled, and develops some pressure. Essentially, until BOTH rear lifter galleys get oil and develop pressure. Some may argue, this is not really any different than no oil balance line. With no oil balance line, some may argue that the front lifter galley crossover sees oil sooner than WITH a balance line..... Following me?



So I was thinking about adding a check valve at the front port in an attempt to keep the oil balance line "primed" if you will. That way, when you start the engine, there is still some oil in the balance line, and you would pressurize sooner. Minimizing the delay in getting oil to your main bearings.


This relates directly to an accumulator because an accumulator is usually fed from the same port that we are using for the balance line here. Many people have self-destructed their engines because of improper installation. Meaning, without the proper valving, their engine tried to fill the 1qt to 3qt accumulator BEFORE oiling the engine. This is why it is imperative to have an accumulator valve shut at initial startup, and then fill the accumulator slowly.



Thoughts?
 

The Mad Cadder

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2013
Messages
3,856
Reaction score
41
Points
48
Location
Detoilet Mi
Sounds like a good idea to me.. If your running a -6 line could you adapt or do they make -8 valve to it that way it wouldn't be any restriction I would think
 

cerial

New Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2012
Messages
38
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Watching this tread develop to what it has become has been quite nice. Something that keeps bothering me is that the main method to obtain pressure is still to use the existing pump and run lines all over.

Why not simply tap the oil pan, place the T into the pickup screen, with one end going to the old pump, and the other end going out of the pan to a titan oil pump directly on the pan. Then have a line going from the titan, through a regulator, to the back of the block.

When the pressure at the back of the block drops, the sending unit kicks on the titan adding pressure until the oil pressure is (mostly)equalized throughout the engine.

I don't know a way to have the pump pressure and the regulator pressure match.

It seems that you could install a on/off pressure switch at the pump itself. Then when the pump is producing say 40psi(or when the starvation occurs) a relay supplies power to the titan which turns on. The regulator keeps the pressure at 45 psi giving adequate lubrication to the back of the block while the pump continues producing pressure to the rest of the engine. Once the engine rpm drops the pump shuts off.

I know it is not perfect. But, the lines would be shorter, exposed to less heat, the stock pump would not be stressed, and the entire system would not be noticeable unless someone was under the car. You would still have the banjo fitting. There is no good way around that. But, the titan produces more then enough pressure to maintain pressure despite how many 90's someone was to add.
 
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Messages
4,150
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Apple Valley, CA
Never seen the Titan on an engine but I think the Titan bolts in the stock pump location. Not a separate belt drive pump so both pumps could not be used.
Besides the stock pump with balance lines will feed 99% of the Cadillac engine builds :twocents:
 

The Mad Cadder

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2013
Messages
3,856
Reaction score
41
Points
48
Location
Detoilet Mi
MTS Marty AKA Nashillac said:
Never seen the Titan on an engine but I think the Titan bolts in the stock pump location. :twocents:


Sure does all kinds of pics in my gallery. They also make belt drive pumps

 

cerial

New Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2012
Messages
38
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I don't know why I keep calling these pumps titan. :cursing:

Here is a link to the TILTON oil pump I am talking about.
http://tiltonracing.com/product/cooler-pumps/

It is cheap and trusted by many people. Because it would only be turned on during the psi at which starvation occurs it will last. It has proven itself in many instances. Because it will only be run at high rpm any voltage drop will not be noticed.
By mounting it directly to the pan it gives a shorter line from the pump to the engine. In the case of my Eldorado 472 pan the 3/8 line would be less then 32" making for instant oiling before starvation occurs no matter how hard I hit the pedal. The best thing about using an electric pump would be that (in my case) only around 14" of the line is exposed making for a neat and organized system.

Running a electric pump does eliminate any option of a cooler or second filtration that tapping the pump and running a long line up over the intake provides.
 
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
586
Reaction score
15
Points
18
Correct me if I am wrong, but after the oil pump stops pumping there is no constant source of oil to feed all the "oil leaks" in the engine. Therefore the whole oil system will bleed out, leaving only a film of oil between the moving parts.
You can not put a one way valve anywhere in the oil system because of bleed off. You can not have a stationary, non running engine, constantly pressurized. It will not hold pressure because of the built in running tolerances. Oil leaks equal bleed off equal zero pressure when the oil is not constantly resupplied. Correction. You might be able to put a a one way valve in the oil pickup to oil pump line to ensure instant oil feed to the pump on start up. Self priming, wouldn't have to suck oil up thru that 3 ft. straw. The Tilton pump you describe is for oil circulation only, not pressurization of a high pressure system. Running a 2 qt. AccuSump type of deal looks to be the way to go. I also would wager that the AccuSump would be quicker to react in case of pressure drop.

John
 
Joined
Apr 1, 2011
Messages
308
Reaction score
1
Points
16
Location
Gypsum,KS
The nice thing about the tilton pump is the option to prelube the engine before starting to crank the engine. As the oil drains out of the galleys the pump could be run to fill the system so the engine pump would cause immediate pressure as soon as the engine starts turning. This would prevent the rear rods and mains from making several revolutions with no oil supply.
 

Member 3508

Active Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2012
Messages
1,611
Reaction score
18
Points
38
Regardless of How the routing is plumbed or what kind of pump is used (there is definitely some bugs to wok out in the theory above, like reverse flow, or sucking air from the other pump), its a cool idea.

A couple of things, I would never run an electrical pump for something as critical as engine oiling. I hate gremlins, and it would not be a failsafe system. However, i like the idea of running an alternate pump.

Personally i would run it in parallel to the stock pump somehow, both with 1 way valves, and they would work together to feed the engine. Same idea as cerial originally had.


I know in the HVAC world, this is a common thing. I dont see why an engine wouldnt benefit.
 

dave brode

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Messages
14,871
Reaction score
167
Points
63
Location
Frostburg, Maryland
Well, after a year and a half, I'm getting it together. I was too cheap/lazy for s/s braided, and I didn't want to hunt down s/s hardline, so I went with common 3/8" steel. I would prefer -8, but [excuses] really, the 3/8" should carry a good bit of oil.

The "gauge port" fittings are Aeroquip alum automotive line. I had to use one at front too, for the turbo feeds. The 90* 3/8" pipe to -6 AN swivel fitting in the block is linked back in the thread. The rest are are industrial Eaton/Aeroquip or Weatherhead that I get from the local industrial supply house. They use a 37* single flare and tube nuts/sleeves. The most expensive fitting [other than the gauge port fittings] is the long leg 90* swivel at the top rear, it is Aeroquip, it was $10. The short swivel nut 90s are Weatherhead and apx $4. The bulkhead tee was Weatherhead, less than $10. Afaik, the companies are affiliated, but some items are only available in Aeroquip.

While I was at it, I re-did one kinked up water line and re-did the -4 turbo feed lines with same fittings. I had brass inverted flare stuff on the turbos, worked fine, just looked clunky.

Note - the clearance at the top of the block to the long 90 is tight. A longer gauge port fitting would be better there. It would also allow for less of a bend in the tube going from the 90 to the bulkhead tee. Here's a link to a longer fitting. #16204 Nitrous Express. Pretty red rather than pretty blue :devil:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nex-16204/overview/
Dave
 

dave brode

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Messages
14,871
Reaction score
167
Points
63
Location
Frostburg, Maryland
pics - have to re-size every freakin one..........
 

Attachments

  • DSC00449.JPG
    DSC00449.JPG
    117.6 KB · Views: 5,789
  • DSC00451.JPG
    DSC00451.JPG
    198.6 KB · Views: 5,787
  • DSC00448.JPG
    DSC00448.JPG
    48.8 KB · Views: 5,785
  • DSC00452.JPG
    DSC00452.JPG
    108 KB · Views: 5,784

dave brode

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Messages
14,871
Reaction score
167
Points
63
Location
Frostburg, Maryland
Will probably put a hold tab where my thumb is.
 

Attachments

  • DSC00453.JPG
    DSC00453.JPG
    238.3 KB · Views: 5,769
  • DSC00443.JPG
    DSC00443.JPG
    216.8 KB · Views: 5,769
  • DSC00456.JPG
    DSC00456.JPG
    208.7 KB · Views: 5,769
  • DSC00467.JPG
    DSC00467.JPG
    223.5 KB · Views: 5,769

dave brode

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Messages
14,871
Reaction score
167
Points
63
Location
Frostburg, Maryland
front

Rear pic shows the short gauge port fitting [longer would be better]
 

Attachments

  • DSC00445.JPG
    DSC00445.JPG
    253.9 KB · Views: 5,769
  • DSC00450.JPG
    DSC00450.JPG
    190.1 KB · Views: 5,763
  • DSC00447.JPG
    DSC00447.JPG
    167.6 KB · Views: 5,764

dave brode

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Messages
14,871
Reaction score
167
Points
63
Location
Frostburg, Maryland
The Mad Cadder said:
dave brode said:
front

Rear pic shows the short gauge port fitting [longer would be better]


Very clean looking install Dave :D

Kickout oil pan too , are those test log ex manifolds

Yes, test forever. lol I don't believe that a 4 into 1 is worth all that much on a turbo'd engine.
 
Top