Deville Went Down to Georgia - Build

Discussion in 'Big Block Cadillacs' started by nosgood, Jul 10, 2017.

  1. nosgood

    nosgood Active Member

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    IT RUNS! Sounds great, and only a few minor leaks! I have a problem though. When I manually operate the oil pump with my power drill, I get 30 psi reading on my gauge. When I reinstall the distributor and fire the engine, nothing reads on the gauge. What the hell?!

    I haven’t run it for more than 10 seconds at a time because I haven’t seen consistent readings from the gauge. My dad said he saw it jump a few times but when I’m watching it won’t even budge. Anybody have any ideas?

    Ps, There is definitely oil in the engine, and I can definitely feel the distributor engage with the oil pump, so I don’t think that’s an issue.
     
  2. Darius

    Darius Well-Known Member

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    Nick, Brother,

    What you've posted makes absolutely NO sense to me. Not trying to get in your face, but trying to figure out HOW what you've posted is possible. IF the pump works when driven by the electric drill, it obviously should work when driven by the distributor drive shaft -- unless that shaft is not engaging with the pump. BUT, if the engine DOES run that says the distributor is engaging the distributor gear with the cam gear, therefore the shaft must be turning.

    So, how the hell can the shaft turn and not cause the pump to give pressure?? Check the end of the distributor drive shaft for length. If a portion has broken, or worn, off there might not be enough to engage the pump's drive shaft.

    One test I would try: Disconnect power to the coil so that the engine can't fire. Then, without the bearings being endangered due to a lack of oil, give the engine a good spin while a second person closely watches the pressure gauge.

    That brings a couple of questions to mind: at what speed is the drill turning to bring up oil pressure? Do you get pressure when turning the drill slower?

    bro. d
     
  3. MIHELA

    MIHELA Active Member

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    I had over 50 when I primed my oil pump. Something's not right.
     
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  4. nosgood

    nosgood Active Member

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    My drill can only spin up to 30 psi before it starts to slip. I probably could get more pressure with a more powerful drill, because this one is just a little battery operated unit.

    My theory is that I didn't let it run long enough to show pressure on the gauge. I had a helper in the car watching gauges and cranking the ignition while I watched for leaks and problems on the outside. He said there was pressure on the gauge but nothing over 40. The one time I cranked the car myself I didn't see the needle move at all in like 3 seconds so I cut it off.

    On Wednesday I'll have more time to mess with it.
     
  5. nosgood

    nosgood Active Member

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    Okay guys, the problem still persists. I had a helper sit in the car while I spun the drill and we got oil pressure within 5 seconds. When I start it up, I counted 10 seconds without the gauge moving at all before I cut it off. I do not know how to proceed.
     
  6. peter phillips

    peter phillips Active Member

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    Are you absolutely certain that the distributor has dropped all the way down into the block. Sometimes you need to turn the rotor a bit or even bump the starter to get the distributor to go all the way in.
     

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  7. nosgood

    nosgood Active Member

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    Yes, absolutely. I can feel the distributor spin past the cam gear and fully engage with the oil pump driveshaft. The engine wouldn't run without the distributor being fully seated, right?

    I'm going to put an oil pressure gauge in a different spot, closer to the oil pump and see if I can get a reading there. The pressure gauge I have in the car is a mechanical unit from Bosch. There are lots of air bubbles in the little nylon line leading to the gauge. Could that cause it to act up? I just so confused by this because the gauge and oil system both obviously work; I can get good pressure in 5 seconds with the drill.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
  8. peter phillips

    peter phillips Active Member

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    Don't worry about the bubbles for now but you should get rid of that nylon tubing eventually.I had one split and spray oil everywhere. You have too much money here to rely on Chinese nylon shit. Get copper.
    Next thing I would do is try another oil pump. And for now remove the oil cooler stuff. I suspect the drill is spinning much faster than a distributor shaft can. That's giving you an oil pressure reading simply because of the drill speed.
    Everything OK with the oil pick up tube, the little o ring ok?
    Keep digging. There's a reason for this.
    Peter
     
  9. thelazyk

    thelazyk Member

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    Perhaps you should purge the air from your oil line, remove the gage with the line pointed into a catch can, spin the pump until all the air is gone. Just a thought.
    Agree about the oil ring on the pick-up tube, definitely would suck air, giving you the bubbles.
     
  10. nosgood

    nosgood Active Member

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    Thanks for the advice guys, I'll get on it and report back. Here's what I know for certain: The oil pickup tube is a stock one from a 1968 472. It was thoroughly cleaned and installed with an o-ring. The pump is a brand new unit from MTS. I expect it was a stock one with some of the rough casting cleaned out. It was installed with a light coat of RTV on the mating surface of the pump. I'm talking a super thin smear; just enough for the gasket to stick to it. I pre-oiled the gears and installed it.

    Also, on the subject of drills, I looked up the specs for mine and it's max speed is 1900 rpm. I've consistently getting 30 psi with the drill at less than full speed, so I can't more than a few hundred off from the idle speed of the engine.

    I will remove the oil cooler circuit, and take a video of me operating the pump with the drill. Maybe you guys will catch something I haven't. Next step is to pull the pump, and after that I guess the pan might come off too, just to be certain.

    -Nick
     
  11. Darius

    Darius Well-Known Member

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    Bro. Julius asked me to pass along what he believes your oil pressure problem to be. He thinks that you relief valve is stuck. That might be the case but I still have questions.

    My exchange with Julius is below:
    bro. d


    Thu, Jul 26, 2018 2:31 pm
    Darius A. Gray
    To juliuslitaban juliuslitaban@hotmail.com

    Julius,

    Here is another view, mine.


    For years, on every build I've done whether the big Caddy motor, Oldsmobile, Buick or Chevy I've packed the cavities of the oil pumps with Vaseline to form a seal causing the pump to lift oil from the sumps. There has never been a problem, even after tons of miles. There has been no damage to bearings as the Vaseline dissolves soon due to heat. And since there are always oil changes after the immediate break in there could be no lasting issues.
    If my memory serves me, even GM motor manuals stay to pack the gears of the oil pumps.

    Now, about the dead heading when turning the pump with a drill - this one is STILL not making sense to me.

    You are correct, without the engine running it does present an amount of restriction thereby giving a higher gauge reading. But, one my builds when the drill setup is removed there has always been good pressure, though somewhat lower than with the drill. In the case of the poster, there is no pressure. If the problem was a frozen open relief valve there should be no pressure with the drill as the flow would be less with the drill.


    d
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Julius and Lita Ban
    To: Darius Sent: Thu, Jul 26, 2018 10:45 am
    Subject: Re: Nosgood

    Without the internals moving it's has the oil essentially dead headed... against a drill motor turning maybe 4 or 500 rpm ... when he cranks it or it's turning oil can leak at every point down the line..
    a huge mistake that people make is packing the pump with grease or vasoline.

    Besides. Neither is very good for bearings They obstruct flow too..

    It only needs oil. Think of what happens when you pull the filter. If you look into the pump around that valve the bottom of the gears are right there. Drained of oil.
    From: Darius <graytesla@aol.com>
    Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 11:37:28 AM
    To: Julius and Lita Ban
    Subject: Re: Nosgood

    Okay, I’ll pass that along. But how come it shows pressure with the drill?

    bro. d

    On Jul 26, 2018, at 8:29 AM, Julius and Lita Ban wrote:

    His relief valve is stuck
     
  12. nosgood

    nosgood Active Member

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    Darius, thank you very much for taking the time to do this. And thanks to Julius as well, he knows his stuff.

    Is this a problem that is best solved by getting a different pump or can I make what I’ve got work? I will remove it tomorrow and post pictures. I haven’t had time in the garage in a couple days.
     
  13. Darius

    Darius Well-Known Member

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    Nick,
    Frankly I hope the Old Cadder is right, that your relief valve is frozen. If that proves to be the case your problem will be solved. :thumbup:

    Best,

    bro. d
     
  14. Darius

    Darius Well-Known Member

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    Nick, and I suppose anyone else looking at oil pump pressure issues:

    Here is the latest from Bro. Julius.

    Julius and Lita Ban

    To
    Darius
    If he is interested I have one of the pumps I did all that work on I would sell him. It made 80 psi... although thay was with my pickup tube.. just pass him my email if he wants

    ADDED in the Next Email ….

    Actually when I changed from the 253@.05..cam to the 261@.05 I took out 1 shim so it makes 75 psi at 3000 rpm currently with 200 degree oil 20-50.. Of course that's with tighter clearances. .002 main .0026 - .0028 rod. It was making 25 at 1050 idle fwir

    Doesn't change the stock pump cavitation tough blocking the passage at the top of the pump certainly helps. Besides that way the pump isn't repumping oil ...that passage allows oil about to enter the block to instead reenter the pump gear at the top ...
     
  15. nosgood

    nosgood Active Member

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    Hey D, I might be interested, can you PM me his email? I got the pump off today. The valve was in this position when removed:
    443C7647-4F76-45C8-B465-5F2BFD0827CC.jpeg

    It slid out pretty easily, so I’m not sure if I’ve found the problem. Anyone see anything?
    B5892310-613E-47BA-8AC0-D1E4DFA29DD9.jpeg

    -Nick
     

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  16. richie49

    richie49 Member

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    Nosgood

    What did you find out about the oil pressure?

    Richard richie49
     
  17. nosgood

    nosgood Active Member

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    I've been talking to our friend the Mad Cadder on Bro D's recommendation. He still thinks that my relief valve was stuck. My plan was to re-install the pump and give it another shot, but he convinced me otherwise. We talked in pretty considerable detail about the other options we have for oiling our big Cad motors, both the Titan pumps and a belt driven dry sump style pump. He also revealed that he had a Titan pump laying around, something I had been interested in pursuing. Unfortunately the company suffered a major fire in December and have not been producing parts, so I thought I'd never get one. Cadder will be sending me his pump and I'm going to see if that won't nip the problem in the bud. Having read all of the threads about oil pressure on these motors, I'll be able to sleep a little easier knowing that my pump won't fail me. I want to start a thread about the Titan pumps and how to install them for anyone in the future, so look for that in the next couple of weeks.
     
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