Designing & building something with some balls on a budget

Discussion in 'Big Block Cadillacs' started by 2JvLo, Dec 8, 2018.

  1. 2JvLo

    2JvLo Member

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    The has been more usefull advise, but thanks for joining in :p

    You're partially right on the hardness off the nicked based castings. They're definitely tough as is, But to make sure they'd last a long time cadillac decided to do a surface hardening on the valve seats. So when you'd grind the valve seat's the hardening gets lost.

    It would be great dough if someone could tell me i'm wrong :whistle:
     
  2. 5one9

    5one9 Active Member

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    It is the nickel content and that is dispersed throughout the casting
     
  3. 2JvLo

    2JvLo Member

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    How certain are you of this? There is a company here in the Netherlands that sells heads with hardened seats for Cadillac's to be albe to run on lpg. But if you're certain it should make it a whole lot easyer to convert.

    Got to be honest dough, I like doing research. This is what i found and is probably common knowledge here but okay,

    Stock Cadillac intake valve:
    ENGINETECH V1714

    Length 5.233 in
    Lock Groove Quantity 1
    Material Chrome Stem
    Stem Diameter 0.3420 in
    Stem Diameter 11/32 in
    Valve Head Diameter 2.000 in

    Pontiac 400 intake valve:
    ENGINETECH V1800

    Length 4.979 in
    Lock Groove Quantity 2
    Material Chrome Stem
    Stem Diameter 0.3415 in
    Stem Diameter 11/32 in
    Valve Head Diameter 2.110 in

    Chevy 454 performance valve from rock auto
    ENGINETECH 730228

    Length 5.217 in
    Lock Groove Quantity 1
    Material Chrome Stem
    Stem Diameter 0.3710 in
    Stem Diameter 3/8 in
    Valve Head Diameter 2.252 in

    It seems that chevy valves are the best suited in terms of diameter an length, But you'd need to have the guides machined, different retainers, locks, and have the top ground back to be able to use my self aligning ford roller rockers. Pontiac valves just need to have the seat ground back further into the head, Which might lower the compression ratio a bit but should otherwise fit fine. One head needs to come apart and i'll see how the retainers are. If they're fine i'd probetly go with the pontiac valves and if they need to be bushed i'd go for the bigger chevy ones.

    Another thing i've calculated is that if the 120cc heads are brought back 15cc the compression ratio will measure out to roughly 9.75:1. I'll try and see if it's doable by milling the head down quite a bit.
     
  4. 5one9

    5one9 Active Member

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    They make longer Pontiac Ram Air IV valves. I had them in my Buick 455. I know nothing about running LPG. The Caddy nickel content is not hardened seats, it is just sufficient for unleaded fuel. Does LPG burn way hotter than gasoline?
     
  5. 2JvLo

    2JvLo Member

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    Thank's for pointing those out, Definitely the best choice. On the Lpg subject, It burns quite a lot hotter than gasoline and is notorious for destroying anything but hardened seats. Since cadillac has that harder cast material i'll just give it a shot and see what happens. The one thing about these valves is the seat angle mostly used to work with mostly 45 angles, Maybe i'll have them ground that way. My order is placed and hope to see them soon.

    The valves that 5one9 pointed out are:
    MELLING V1098

    Title Engine Intake Valve
    Material Steel
    Locks Included No
    Oversized No
    Valve Head Diameter 2.110 in.
    Valve Head Diameter 53.590 mm.
    Length 5.093 in.
    Length 129.3622 mm.
    Coated Finish Yes
    Grade Type Regular
    Seat Angle 29.0
    Lock Groove Quantity 2
    Stem Diameter .341 in.
    Stem Diameter 8.660 mm.


    I also took apart the head that i had laying extra. The guides luckily seem to be in a pretty good shape. Decided to let the exhaust valves be for the time since the exhaust sides on these heads don't seem to be that big of a restriction, Seats will be freshened and the stock valves cut and refitted. Intake will get the pontiac valves and freshly cut seats. Really looking forward on getting this done :thumbup::thumbup:
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
  6. Cadillac Kid 1

    Cadillac Kid 1 Well-Known Member

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    Just dug up an old work sheet from a comparison (on the flow bench) that was done on my stock and modified heads. The numbers are n CFM
    --------------------- INTAKE ---------------------- EXHAUST
    Valve opening----2.00"----2.19"------------- 1.60" ---- 1.75"

    -------.200 ------- 119 ----106--------------- 87 ----- 85
    ------- .300 ------- 169 ----159 -------------- 118------121
    ------- .400------- 194 ----211---------------- 140-----152
    -------.450---------- 206-----229--------------- 147-----168
    .500 215 244 152 176
    .550 225 253 160 181
    .600 225 255 163 184

    Regardless of the actual values which might vary from machine to machine, the comparisons were done on the same machine under the same conditions.
    Greg Surfas
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
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  7. Cadillac Kid 1

    Cadillac Kid 1 Well-Known Member

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    Cant get the numbers to spread out without manually inserting spaces or dashes. If you cant figure out the airflows, let me know and I will go through the numbers with spacing dashes.
    The results show an average intake increase of 14.7% and an exhaust increase of 11.2%
    Greg Surfas
     
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  8. 5one9

    5one9 Active Member

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    Very interesting info. How extensive was the port work?
     
  9. Cadillac Kid 1

    Cadillac Kid 1 Well-Known Member

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    VERRRRRRY minor. Just a bit of work in the bowl and plugging and smoothing the egr ports.
    Greg Surfas
     
  10. 2JvLo

    2JvLo Member

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    That's some really cool info you got there, Thanks for sharing and good to have it here. made it into a table.

    [​IMG]

    Some cool stuff to see in there. On the lower lift's the bigger valves seem to flow less, Would that be because off such a little amount of air goes by the valves that size won't be a limiting factor yet but the narrower shrouding from the combustion chamber does? And also interesting to see that increasing lift further than 0.55'' wont gain you any power but only extra wear and tear on the valvetrain. Just wondering dough, If the valve ain't the restriction anymore it must be the runner itself. So correct me if i'm wrong but tha should be the point where porting the runners becomes worthwhile?
     
  11. 5one9

    5one9 Active Member

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    I raised the intake roof 1/8” on mine and significantly pushed back the pushrod pinch probably 0.080”-0.100”. Blended both short turn radius and loads of bowl work. I don’t have a clue what they flow but they sure looked nice.
     
  12. Cadillac Kid 1

    Cadillac Kid 1 Well-Known Member

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    This is the air flow data from my CNC 76 (actually 75)CC chamber heads with 2.19 inch intakes and 1.84 inch exhaust valves. My cam (Hyd roller) with 252/248 degrees takes advantage of the potential airflow.




    valve opening--- air flow intake -----air flow exhaust

    0.10 ----------- 78.20---------- 63.30
    0.20----------- 130.40 ---------- 112.60
    0.30----------- 133.70----------- 158.80
    0.40----------- 250.50----------- 190.30
    0.45----------- 271.80---------- 203.50
    0.50 ---------- 295.30 ----------- 217.10
    0.55----------- 304.50----------- 228.00
    0.60----------- 314.40----------- 231.80
    0.65----------- 326.20---------- 244.30
    0.70---------- 326.90 ---------- 250.20
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  13. Cadillac Kid 1

    Cadillac Kid 1 Well-Known Member

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    Just put those numbers in here to show what the potential for these heads to flow with a good deal of work.
    Greg Surfas
     
  14. 5one9

    5one9 Active Member

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    Great info with actual data. Much appreciated. You don’t happen to have pics of the port work?
     
  15. Cadillac Kid 1

    Cadillac Kid 1 Well-Known Member

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    didn't take any that really show what was done.
    Greg Surfas
     
  16. 5one9

    5one9 Active Member

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    Those are great numbers for a stock head.
     
  17. 2JvLo

    2JvLo Member

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    Rally nice numbers! Truly shows the potential off the stock heads when you trow some money and time at them.

    The valves came in yesterday and they look exactly the way i hoped them to. they have a double groove but that's no problem since just the upper one will be used in our application. Also found out that i'm way to naive. Cleaned a head an fitted a plexiglass plate to cc them out. Ofcourse the valves didn't seal so the petrolium came out as fast is i could pour it in. Will remove the valves, clean the shit out of them and try again later with some grease on the valves. To be continued.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     

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